
Muhammad Ali is a boxing icon and an international hero. His stance against the Vietnam war and subsequent suspension due to his refusal to be drafted into the army, gave him a larger than life persona.
With that said, there is a video of him that has bothered me since I was a kid. It comes from the press conference before his third fight with Joe Frazier. In the video, Ali pulls out a Gorilla doll which was meant to be Frazier and begins to punch it. While he's punching it, he gives this line,"It's gonna be a chilla, and a killa, and a thriller, when I get the Gorilla in Manilla." All my years watching that video, I have never laughed.
I didn't laugh because I couldn't understand how one Black man could call another Black man a Gorilla. When you also consider the time period this fight took place in (1975), it's still unbelievable Ali would go that far. The excuse that he was trying to promote the fight does not fly. He had other options than to call Frazier a Gorilla and mock him in the manner that he did. To go along with calling Frazier a Gorilla, he also said Joe was not intelligent and made fun of his nose. He used the very stereotypes that Whites have said about Blacks against one of his own kind.
My disappointment in Ali has only gotten worse since watching the HBO documentary, "Thrilla in Manila." For one of the few times, the story is told from Mr. Frazier's perspective. After watching that documentary, I see why Joe still harbors anger all these years later.
What I didn't know is that Frazier was supportive of Ali during his suspension from boxing. He tried to get Ali's boxing license reinstated, defended him and even borrowed him money. His repayment for these acts of kindness were to be called an "Uncle Tom" and a "Gorilla."
It's ironic that Ali was such an important figure for the Black Power movement, yet displayed such racial hatred for a member of his own race. Being that Ali was lighter skinned than Frazier, it makes you wonder did he really believe that he was superior to Joe. If that was the case, than I have to ask who was the real uncle tom/house negro?
I know some of you will defend Ali, calling it just his sense of humor. Or, Joe would not be that upset had he won the final fight. Neither of those points is the real issue.
The real issue is the superficial nature of our people sometimes. The ability to have this double standard where if a White man had said what Ali did, there would have been mass protest. Yet, Ali says it and it's "funny." Funny? It damn sure wasn't funny to Frazier and his family, besides Ali knew better, but he did it anyway.
After the fight, Ali requested that Joe Frazier's son, Marvis come to his locker room. At that point, he apologized about his behavior and asked Marvis to tell his father that. Joe's response was correct,"he should have told that to me." Ali owned him that much. Ali has never apologized for his Gorilla statement. He made a general apology in 2001, but it was not specific enough for Frazier and I understand that. Although, it would probably do him some good to forgive Ali and move on. I think history will show it was not he who was in the wrong, it was Ali.
What do you think of Ali's behavior leading up to the fight? Does his behavior put a stain on his legacy? Let me know.
18 comments:
As much as I have loved and idolized Ali..I find that I have to agree with you. After all these years, when I look back on that..It was deplorable ..I'm sure Ali feels sorry for what he did then..but harmful words stick and leave behind an irreversable hurt.
Great Post!
I never looked at it from Joe's perspective. I am a huge boxing fan. I still have the stubs from that fight (displayed on a post "betcha by golly wow")
You were correct in saying some will defend Ali ...I just can't let it go. I liked your post.
At some point we have to move on with what white people think of us. I mean if we look at it as a way to get a boxer off of his game then it's just fine. When we put it under disparaging another Black man, likening him to a Gorilla, and then making the leap that white folk think we are gorillas is a big problem. To me he didn't call him a Ni99a so it wasn't racial.
People are so sensitive we won't even eat fried chicken, watermelon or play rap music loud. I'm overconfident he did not mean it in anyway than to get him off his game. Whether its 1975 or 2009 when are we going to be able to say what we want without worrying about what whitey thinks.
Life is hard enough to live and then we censor our own interactions with each other for the sake of whitey may be listening. C'mon!
Keith,
Thanks for the comment!
I think had Ali maned up and apologized to Frazier before the world right after that fight, I think he may have forgiven him. But to mock him in front of the world and then apologize to Joe's son wasn't good enough.
Peace
CareyCarey,
I'm a big boxing fan as well.
As far as not being able to let it go, neither can Joe Frazier. I think it would be healthy for Mr. Frazier to let it go, Ali does not seem to be too concerned about it, why should Joe? He should not allow himself to be a prisoner to his anger.
Peace
Freeman Press,
Thanks for the comment!
I see your point about how we have to be honest with ourselves and be able to enjoy things we like. What white folk think of us should never be a factor in deciding how we behave.
Although, every culture has do's and don'ts. What passes in America wouldn't fly in Iran, because it's two different cultures with very different beliefs, laws, morals and customs. Whether we agree with culture or not, it does not stop its existence.
I believe within the Black American culture, Ali crossed a line. It was a line Ali knew he crossed or he would not have apologized to Frazier's son after the fight. He could have used other language to get Frazier off his game, ask yourself why did he chose to call him a Gorilla?
My issue really has nothing to do with white people and more about a lack of respect. Ultimately, what one finds appropriate or not is subjective.
We disagree on this one, brother. I believe Ali knew what he was doing and it was racist behavior.
Peace
Hello Truth
I had to come back on this one. Well, like I said, I am a boxing fan therefore I like talking about boxing. Anyway, I just couldn't let your question of "why did he call him a Gorilla" sit there.
1) This wasn't the first time Ali used rhyme to express his thoughts ...Thrilla-Manila-Gorilla.
I don't know how this would fit ...Rumble in the Jungle, hell on Tinker Bell, go tell Cozell
2) Is calling Joe Louis, The Brown Bomber racist?
3) A Gorilla is a dangerous animal - a fierce animal. I can't imagine Frazier being called "white polar bear". Heck, Sonny Liston was called The Bear, no complaints there?
4) I believe Ali's apology was rooted in the fact that Joe didn't like the name, not that Ali thought he'd done something wrong.
5) You made an excellent point. Forgiveness is for the forgiver. It's time for Joe to let it go, it's on him now.
I am going to side with Freeman Press on this one. There could be an unconscious view through others eyes. It would be interesting to see how the opinions on this topic would divide between fans of Frazier and those of Ali's. And then use those numbers to compare between white and black boxing fans ....ummmm. I think the comparisons would be enlightning.
What's up!
Looking back at Ali in the historical sense, make no mistake about it like many great folks there past sins were forgiven and are often painted in a better light*. Homeboy was mean, period. I don't think he was necessarily racist or meant to go there with Frazier but he definitely did everything and anything to take Frazier out of his game.
I think Ali often crossed the line personally on some man-to-man respect. I definitely understand why Frazier may still harbor some animosity against Ali. He made some off-color comments about Ali's current condition, which was a low blow BUT considering the verbal abuse Ali put Frazier through, I can easily see how Frazier would simply say whatever. No one really called out Ali, because everybody loves a winner. Many folks were aware of Tyson's issues but since he was a pure KO artist they were largely ignored.
Wondering, was there ever a prize fighter that attacked his opponents as hard as Ali on a personal level?
I wouldn't call either fighter an Uncle Tom or House Negro at all.
*Miles Davis is usually painted as a musical genius but hardly ever criticized for his admitted abuse of women.
--------
It is interesting to note the different perspectives on forgiveness between this post and the last post about the paradox of forgiving an old racist. wink
CareyCarey,
Thanks for the comment!
Ali did insult his opponents on the regular, he said outlandish things during his career. Maybe in Ali's mind, it's all fair game. I don't know.
As far as do I believe the Brown Bomber is a racist name? My answer would be no. There were other racist names given to Joe Louis before the Brown Bomber stuck with him. I think the intention of this name was not to demean or hurt Louis. Its like calling Mickey Ward, Irish Mickey Ward. It's stating the obvious in a none malicious manner.
Calling someone Gorilla to me, is something more sinister. You're saying there less than human, not really a man. Which is why Ali said Frazier was less intelligent, it goes along with the less than human piece. That's the emasculating part I'm speaking of, which is I feel it doesn't matter where it comes from, Black, white, brown, whoever. It's a racist cogitation, that's just the way I see it.
Your probably correct that Ali does not look it as a big deal, although his apology after the fight raises doubts in my mind. Yet, when we say something to someone, we may have had a different intention, but the way it impacts them might be totally unexpected. It's obvious Ali's words impacted Mr. Frazier in a very serious manner. Ali was smart enough to see a total apology was in order for those despicable comments. No matter what he intended, Ali should have recognized the impact.
Who we root for does effect are perception of things. It would be interesting to see, who knows.
Peace
Vee (Scratch),
I think we fundamentally agree on this issue.
Although, I won't retreat from my stance that Ali's statement was racist. Read my answer to CareyCarey to get to my justification for believing such.
Your right, people tend to overlook the ill behaviors of great men. I still like Ali, he was a hell of fighter. One of the greatest boxers ever and a great champion of human rights. With that said, in my opinion, what he said about Frazier was out of line, racist and hurtful. No excuse changes that, in my mind. Others are free to believe what they want to, that's just where I'm coming from.
Expand more on what you mean by different perspectives of forgiveness in my last two posts.
Peace
Okay Truth, I see where you are coming from. Considering all the other things Ali said about Frazier, it would be a fair assumption to view his remarks as seriously negative.
I also understood your comparison to Mickey Wards name (one of the great fights with ????dang???). That sort of reminds of The Mexican Destroyer. I wouldn't think that many would call that racist. Or even the Black Mamboo???
There is one that didn't set well with me. Have you heard of The Tar Baby ...Langsford?
To some degree, I may be interchanging the words racist and racism.
I am also interested on Vee's take on forgiveness.
Were we talking about what constitutes a hero or forgiving a racist?
Thanks for standing on your position. Now I feel more comfortable standing on mine *lol*
But I can't leave without asking you who else Ali demeaned in this fashion? I believe you said he insulted several others. I am searching hard for that one. I remember Oscar bonavetta(sp) disrespecting him as did Sonny Liston. He never crossed the line with Larry Holmes. He took a few small swipes at George Foreman's slow fighting style. He didn't need to say a thing to Gerry Quary.
I'll be waiting :-)
To be blunt, I thought that it was interesting that the overall consensus appears to be that Frazier should just forgive Ali and move on, which I definitely agree with.
The contrasting tone concerning former KKK supporter Elwin Wilson seeking foriveness was not really accepted and even questioned. I can see why because the clear racial distinctions adds a different dynamic.
I think your points calling Ali's actions racist were valid. I just need more information to brand Ali a racist. Depending on the situation I really don't get too caught up in the connection between monkey/gorilla/porch monkey and African Americans. I think we're far removed from the time period that they grew up and the information and new perspectives that they may have gained. After all, to this day many young men greet each other with phrases like "Whaddup my muddaf***** n*****" and many other insulting phrases.
But Ali was definitely mean . . . see Sonny Liston.
I do not think Ali was being racist, but he was being insensitive. This does not diminish my opinion of Ali. To me this is the same as playing the dozens on the stoop of my building growing up. We used to say shit to our friends that was down right cruel just to get a laugh from our other friends. I honestly want to believe this is what Ali was doing.
I understand your point, but I also think that it was meant in jest.
CareyCarey,
Off the top of my head, I can only remember his comment about how slow Foreman was. How he would telegraph his punches before throwing them. He clowned Liston and then beat hell out of that one cat who kept calling him Cassius Clay. I remember watching the video of him in the ring, screaming "What's my name, What's name" in that cat's face while he's hitting him. I think his name was Ernie Terrell.
I remember reading about a Langsford but he fought in the early 20th century. Thinking about how racist that time period was in history, I can believe that would have been his nickname given to him by white sports writers.
Peace
Vee,
I wouldn't call Ali a racist, but his behavior certain was such.
I don't know how far African Americans are removed from this type of behavior. Camron and Rick Ross both called Fifty cent a Gorilla. I don't care for fifty cent, but I don't agree that they should be calling him that.
Many folks use the N - word and claim it as a term of endearment. But really listen to how they use word and you''ll see most of time its negative.
I think your assessment is correct on the contrast of empathy between the two posts. Although, we have to keep in mind that Mr. Wilson committed acts of violence towards peaceful people. He attacked freedom riders and just common black folk he would see around town. Ali and Frazier were two boxers who volunteered to fight one another. Also, Ali did apologize immediately after the fight, it took Wilson forty years to do so.
Peace
Dirty Red,
He probably meant it in jest, but I feel he went too far. I understand your point, but once he started making t shirts and pulling out Gorilla dolls, then it crossed a line in my mind.
Peace
I have to jump in Dirty Red car, he said what I failed to say. It was an insensitive remark. I also played the dozens and saw several fights break out ...yes-sir-ree. But in the end it was generally all cool. Them boys would fight FOR each another. I think Ali has been the bigger man in this issue.
I'm not gonna defend Ali, just say where his mind was at the time. Ali had been robbed of his title in his prime. He was as angry a Black man as there was. He was not allowed to earn a living for a country I won a gold medal for. While he may have been making the Ivy League speaking tour, and being loved by young folks of all races. He was seething... He had been rejected and so had his God.
So when Ali got back in the ring, he was still doing his take-off on Gorgeous George the wresler... making a mockery of his opponents to sell tickets, but he constantly went over the line. He always used names (Patterson- the rabbit, Foreman- The Mummy, Liston - The Bear), Frazier didn't care about being called a gorilla. He was furious about Alie painting Frazier as the White Man's champion, and him as the Black Man's champion. That disrespected everything Frazier had accomplished by pulling himself out of his dirt poor Philly background. I will always idolize Ali, but even if Frazier forgave him I don't know if I will.
Ali dissed Howard Cosell the same way... and wrestled Frazier's brother to the ground on Wide World of Sports... all to sell tickets and put himself back on top. He was crazy for a few years. After Ken Norton broke his jaw, he went back to being himself. But the man had been robbed of everything, and had Elijah Muhammad in his ear telling him that everyone was his enemy. So even if you can't forgive him, try to understand where he was at that time.
I agree that Ali's behavior was wrong and so does Ali. Remember he said he felt bad because he called Sonny Liston a Big Ugly Bear. That said it wasn't the first time he said it and fighters have said worse since while promoting a fight. I think we are disapointed cause it's Ali. Now as far as Joe. Grow up! I think Ali has made it known to Joe over the past 30 years that he was sorry and Joe still holding that ish. Joe has done and said something to somebody that hurt them to. Get over it. Grow up!
Jaycee
Boy if this was Zack's blog...He would've pitched a fit by now..Mister Jaycee...tellin someone to grow up!
Hello there!
Ali knows that he was wrong for that.
He will have to accept that his triumphs and his foolishness are all caught on film....
Peace, blessings and DUNAMIS!
Lisa
CareyCarey,
Thanks for the comment!
I don't see it that way, but we'll just have to agree that we're going to disagree at times and that's okay. We can disagree without being disagreeable.
Peace
Dwane T,
I see where you're coming from and it's understandable that Ali had some anger. I think we would both agree they way he went about dealing with his anger is deplorable.
Peace
Mista Jaycee,
Thanks for dropping by and commenting!
It would be healthy for Joe to forgive, but Ali said some hurtful shit. I've said it before and I'll say it again, intent vs impact is what we are talking about. Ali obviously did not intend to hurt Joe for 30 years, but the impact of his words have hurt Joe for a long time. Ali knew better and should have apologized before the world a long time ago. That probably would have lessened the blow.
Peace
Anonymous,
Obviously this is an inside comment, therefore I won't expand on what you wrote.
Peace
BlackwomenBlowthetrumpet (Lisa)
Thanks for stopping by and commenting!
I agree with you and maybe that is the just punishment for his actions.
Peace
Post a Comment